Interview with Dr Wang Xiaohua. |
This is the first in a series of planned interviews with figures of note in the international Tanglang Men (Mantis Boxing family). I have chosen subjects who I personally deem interesting and who I believe have added something to the fabric of the art. Whether or not these individuals conform to any existing standard of newsworthiness or hold any particular rank or status in the martial world is unimportant to me. They are people whose life experiences may be of interest and benefit to us all. The first person I would like to interview is the man who set me off on the lifelong path of Tanglang obsession, my first teacher of Mantis Boxing; Dr Wang Xiaohua (AKA Hua Wang.
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Front row from left: Wang Ying (niece), Wang Xun (nephew), Song Jie (niece)
Second row: Song Lian (nephew), Hu Bihua (mother), Wang Yongsheng (father), Shen Qin (nephew) Third row: Anna Wang (second sister), Jin Minghua (first sister in law); Jiang Jinwen (second sister in law); Wang Qin (first sister) Last row: Wang Xiaohua, Wang Xingli (first brother), Wang Xingwei (second brother), Shen Hua (first brother in law). |
BT: Being interviewed by that kid you used to teach in the park for a website that internationally promotes the martial art that you studied as a young man all those years ago in Shandong, must be a little strange. I know you don't like to talk too much about yourself but I hope you don't mind sharing some of your experiences of studying Tanglang in Shandong in the 80's. First of all, please tell us a little about yourself. WXH: I was born in Hangzhou, China. I am from a family of intellectuals. My father was a University physical education professor who ultimately taught me Taiji. My mother was a school teacher. I have four siblings consisting of two sisters and two brothers. I am the youngest in the family. I received my primary and secondary school education during a chaotic period in China, the so called 'Cultural Revolution'. The Cultural Revolution ended in 1976. My family transferred me into one of the best high schools in Hangzhou, Hangzhou 2nd Middle School, preparing me for college education. In 1980, I passed the national university exam, and entered Shandong College of Oceanography in Qingdao, China, (later as Ocean University of China, OUC) to study Oceanography. After six years in Qingdao, I was offered a scholarship from James Cook University in Australia, to continue my postgraduate study as a PhD candidate in Oceanography in 1986. |
I got to know you in the early 90's in Canberra. How did you end up there?
After I completed my PhD at JCU in Townsville in 1990, I received an academic position in University of New South Wales at Australian Defence Force Academy, and moved to Canberra in March 1990.
I know that in the absence of training partners or a Chinese Boxing school in Townsville you resorted to training Goju Karate. Did your classmates ever witness any of your Mantis Boxing skills? If so, did they even recognise it? There was nothing like it in Australia at that time.
Yes, I was training Karate with Trevor and Richard, but I don't remember exactly which style. It was small group. They had of course never heard of Tanglang. However, I met a Hong Kong Chinese in Townsville who learnt Southern Tanglang in Hong Kong. He had a brother who was teaching Tanglang in Brisbane. His surname was 'Sue'.
This is the famous pioneering Sue/Sue-Tin family of Chow Gar Tong Long. Their schools are some of the longest running Chinese martial art schools in Australia.
After I completed my PhD at JCU in Townsville in 1990, I received an academic position in University of New South Wales at Australian Defence Force Academy, and moved to Canberra in March 1990.
I know that in the absence of training partners or a Chinese Boxing school in Townsville you resorted to training Goju Karate. Did your classmates ever witness any of your Mantis Boxing skills? If so, did they even recognise it? There was nothing like it in Australia at that time.
Yes, I was training Karate with Trevor and Richard, but I don't remember exactly which style. It was small group. They had of course never heard of Tanglang. However, I met a Hong Kong Chinese in Townsville who learnt Southern Tanglang in Hong Kong. He had a brother who was teaching Tanglang in Brisbane. His surname was 'Sue'.
This is the famous pioneering Sue/Sue-Tin family of Chow Gar Tong Long. Their schools are some of the longest running Chinese martial art schools in Australia.
Grandmaster Li Zhanyuan
When I first met you, you still had the physique of a power lifter (having trained intensively for some time). Although you did do some damage as a result of certain aspects of that training, did you find weight training a useful supplement to Tanglang Quan? All of my teachers in Qingdao did a significant amount of weight training in their youth, particularly Kang Zhiqiang (R.I.P). There is a popular myth in the West regarding the detriments of weight training to traditional Chinese martial arts practice.
Yes, and it worsened my back problem. But strangely, it was also through a carefully managed weights program, that my chiropractor was able to reduce the back pain (by strengthening my back muscles etc).
I suppose power lifting training is quite different to the type of training they were doing. They weren't lifting particularly heavy weights. A lot of the equipment was homemade too, which dictates the type of training to some extent.
Did you get to lift weights on the narrow bench in Grand Master Li Zhanyuan's house or use the stone lock during your sessions there? Kang showed me variations of press, flies with dumbbells, bar and stone lock on that bench. He also said he was made to sleep on a similar bench as a youngster, in order to train stability.
No, but I saw the equipment and heard about the training methods. I actually did all of my weight training after leaving Qingdao.
I remember clear as day the first time I saw you practicing Zhaiyao by yourself outside the training hall in Hughes. I recognised it as Tanglang straight away, though never having seen the Shandong variety with my own eyes, outside of video footage. You must have been caught a little off guard by my instant request to learn from you.
Well, I always hold the belief that through Martial Art, we meet friends - 'Yi Wu Hui You'.
David Cuthbert (Mac), Ki Lam and I began training with you that very weekend. We were your first official students in Tanglang. How did you find the transition from concentrating entirely on your own training to teaching?
I found it was easier and more fun to train with other people, than training by myself.
That was also the original reason I started teaching so I would have people to train with.
We all found the fundamentals of Tanglang extremely difficult at first, particularly the stances and footwork. Yuhuan Bu (Jade Ring Stance) and the Yuhuan Yao Zhan (Jade Ring Waist Cut) drill were like nothing any of us had experienced before. You must have been laughing watching us struggle in the first couple of years.
Not really. Your experience was just like mine when I was learning it in Qingdao.
It's good to hear that it was just as strange to you. Even to this day, new students find Yuhuan Bu and Mantis footwork very awkward to learn.
On the topic of Yuhuan Bu, over the years of training in Qingdao I have seen so many variations of this posture (and related stepping methods) within the one family. I have seen and learnt the posture in a very tight frame with the knees quite close together and the groin 'closed', all the way to extremely extended, with an open/exposed groin, almost like a side on Ma Bu (Horse Stance). For example, you taught us a method of training the dragging step in Yuhuan Bu with a ball held tightly between the knees. Did this method come from GM Li Zhanyuan?
No, this came from Meihua Tanglang (Plum Blossom Mantis). But my stepping method was approved by Li Shifu.
The current generation seem to favour the more open stance, whereas I am halfway between as a result of training fundamentals with you and Kang. Personally I'm not a big fan of the exposed groin. Although I understand the intention of trying to trap your opponent into kicking you there, I am not that keen on risking my fertility.
I have seen various forms of Yuhuan Bu but I prefer a tighter groin that serves for protection against low kicks of the opponent.
Another difference in stepping in Yuhuan or Qilin Bu (Unicorn Step) is in the way the foot is planted in certain instances. I distinctly recall you teaching in great detail about digging the lead foot in, heel first.
That was also a Meihua Tanglang method, but Li Shifu approved it.
There was a lot of discussion about this in Qingdao when I first started training there; flat footed stepping VS heel digging in the 'Dragging Step'. As Kang put it, different steps for different surfaces and in the case of digging the heel in, very effective outside on dirt, grass etc.
One application of the lead foot step in dragging step is also to use the heel to crush the opponent's foot.
Yes, and it worsened my back problem. But strangely, it was also through a carefully managed weights program, that my chiropractor was able to reduce the back pain (by strengthening my back muscles etc).
I suppose power lifting training is quite different to the type of training they were doing. They weren't lifting particularly heavy weights. A lot of the equipment was homemade too, which dictates the type of training to some extent.
Did you get to lift weights on the narrow bench in Grand Master Li Zhanyuan's house or use the stone lock during your sessions there? Kang showed me variations of press, flies with dumbbells, bar and stone lock on that bench. He also said he was made to sleep on a similar bench as a youngster, in order to train stability.
No, but I saw the equipment and heard about the training methods. I actually did all of my weight training after leaving Qingdao.
I remember clear as day the first time I saw you practicing Zhaiyao by yourself outside the training hall in Hughes. I recognised it as Tanglang straight away, though never having seen the Shandong variety with my own eyes, outside of video footage. You must have been caught a little off guard by my instant request to learn from you.
Well, I always hold the belief that through Martial Art, we meet friends - 'Yi Wu Hui You'.
David Cuthbert (Mac), Ki Lam and I began training with you that very weekend. We were your first official students in Tanglang. How did you find the transition from concentrating entirely on your own training to teaching?
I found it was easier and more fun to train with other people, than training by myself.
That was also the original reason I started teaching so I would have people to train with.
We all found the fundamentals of Tanglang extremely difficult at first, particularly the stances and footwork. Yuhuan Bu (Jade Ring Stance) and the Yuhuan Yao Zhan (Jade Ring Waist Cut) drill were like nothing any of us had experienced before. You must have been laughing watching us struggle in the first couple of years.
Not really. Your experience was just like mine when I was learning it in Qingdao.
It's good to hear that it was just as strange to you. Even to this day, new students find Yuhuan Bu and Mantis footwork very awkward to learn.
On the topic of Yuhuan Bu, over the years of training in Qingdao I have seen so many variations of this posture (and related stepping methods) within the one family. I have seen and learnt the posture in a very tight frame with the knees quite close together and the groin 'closed', all the way to extremely extended, with an open/exposed groin, almost like a side on Ma Bu (Horse Stance). For example, you taught us a method of training the dragging step in Yuhuan Bu with a ball held tightly between the knees. Did this method come from GM Li Zhanyuan?
No, this came from Meihua Tanglang (Plum Blossom Mantis). But my stepping method was approved by Li Shifu.
The current generation seem to favour the more open stance, whereas I am halfway between as a result of training fundamentals with you and Kang. Personally I'm not a big fan of the exposed groin. Although I understand the intention of trying to trap your opponent into kicking you there, I am not that keen on risking my fertility.
I have seen various forms of Yuhuan Bu but I prefer a tighter groin that serves for protection against low kicks of the opponent.
Another difference in stepping in Yuhuan or Qilin Bu (Unicorn Step) is in the way the foot is planted in certain instances. I distinctly recall you teaching in great detail about digging the lead foot in, heel first.
That was also a Meihua Tanglang method, but Li Shifu approved it.
There was a lot of discussion about this in Qingdao when I first started training there; flat footed stepping VS heel digging in the 'Dragging Step'. As Kang put it, different steps for different surfaces and in the case of digging the heel in, very effective outside on dirt, grass etc.
One application of the lead foot step in dragging step is also to use the heel to crush the opponent's foot.
Your teaching method was very basic and very effective - endless repetitions of core techniques and fundamental drills, including lots of Zhan Zhuang (Post Standing - static postures). Did this reflect your training with Li Zhanyuan?
I basically repeated what I learnt from Shifu.
Was he a strict teacher?
Yes, he was very strict and precise. I had to do countless repetitions to correct movements.
As you are a Hangzhou native, how did you come about living in Qingdao and connecting with GM Li Zhanyuan?
When I was a college student in Qingdao, I firstly learnt Meihua Tanglang from Master Hu Zengmiao. After a couple years, I was introduced to Shifu by my father's friend, Uncle Chen Shaotian, who at that time was a director of Taidong Sports Bureau. As Shifu also lived in Taidong district, they were friends.
As you mentioned, you began your Tanglang studies under a Meihua master. Did you also study any other systems in Qingdao? I recall you trained a local Shandong Zui Quan style.
Yes, one of my friends in university taught me Zui Quan. It was fun. We were actually encouraged to drink 3 cups of baijiu (Chinese white spirit) before practising to get physically and mentally in the right shape.
It's a wonder you didn't throw up with all the flipping. I didn't officially study Zui Quan but I trained under the influence many times. Some people aren't aware of just how big a part drinking is in Shandong martial arts?
Drinking is part of culture in Shandong. Stories such as Zui Ba Xian (Drunk Eight Immortals) and the bandits of the water margin are all based around drinking culture. Look at heroes such as Wu Song.
You also learnt some Baji in Qingdao as well right?
Yes, I also studied the Baji straight sword.
Did you find the Baji stepping and power generation methods difficult? That sword style is quite different to both Baxian and Damo Jian, for example.
Yes, it's a difficult sword to learn and the shen fa (body method) and bu fa (stepping method) are quite different to all types of Tanglang Jian. It took many sessions to master.
I recall you talking about the obvious difference in the teachings of GM Li and Hu Zengmiao. What stood out the most? I also studied the material you learnt from Hu and to me; there was a big difference in body mechanics, amongst other things.
Well, to start with Shifu was a great master. His focus was on the technical details of every movement. I had to 'undo' my Meihua training at the beginning of studying Qixing with him.
So, at least in the case of Hu's Meihua Tanglang it was much more compact/tighter in frame?
Yes. There was emphasis on short range movements including qinna (joint locking). Li Zhanyuan's flavour was quite different.
I basically repeated what I learnt from Shifu.
Was he a strict teacher?
Yes, he was very strict and precise. I had to do countless repetitions to correct movements.
As you are a Hangzhou native, how did you come about living in Qingdao and connecting with GM Li Zhanyuan?
When I was a college student in Qingdao, I firstly learnt Meihua Tanglang from Master Hu Zengmiao. After a couple years, I was introduced to Shifu by my father's friend, Uncle Chen Shaotian, who at that time was a director of Taidong Sports Bureau. As Shifu also lived in Taidong district, they were friends.
As you mentioned, you began your Tanglang studies under a Meihua master. Did you also study any other systems in Qingdao? I recall you trained a local Shandong Zui Quan style.
Yes, one of my friends in university taught me Zui Quan. It was fun. We were actually encouraged to drink 3 cups of baijiu (Chinese white spirit) before practising to get physically and mentally in the right shape.
It's a wonder you didn't throw up with all the flipping. I didn't officially study Zui Quan but I trained under the influence many times. Some people aren't aware of just how big a part drinking is in Shandong martial arts?
Drinking is part of culture in Shandong. Stories such as Zui Ba Xian (Drunk Eight Immortals) and the bandits of the water margin are all based around drinking culture. Look at heroes such as Wu Song.
You also learnt some Baji in Qingdao as well right?
Yes, I also studied the Baji straight sword.
Did you find the Baji stepping and power generation methods difficult? That sword style is quite different to both Baxian and Damo Jian, for example.
Yes, it's a difficult sword to learn and the shen fa (body method) and bu fa (stepping method) are quite different to all types of Tanglang Jian. It took many sessions to master.
I recall you talking about the obvious difference in the teachings of GM Li and Hu Zengmiao. What stood out the most? I also studied the material you learnt from Hu and to me; there was a big difference in body mechanics, amongst other things.
Well, to start with Shifu was a great master. His focus was on the technical details of every movement. I had to 'undo' my Meihua training at the beginning of studying Qixing with him.
So, at least in the case of Hu's Meihua Tanglang it was much more compact/tighter in frame?
Yes. There was emphasis on short range movements including qinna (joint locking). Li Zhanyuan's flavour was quite different.
Wang Xiaohua and sanda champion Wang Jihong
Please tell us about your first encounter with GM Li Zhanyuan. Describe the man and also his teaching methods. I recall you saying that Li was already very old and would deliver most of his lesson seated on the bed.
When I first met Shifu, he was in his seventies, and widowed. But he was still strong. Shifu liked drinking tea, especially Jasmine tea (Hua Cha). He also liked calligraphy. I remember he had a piece of calligraphy on his wall (Dui Lian), he often commented about its writing. He obviously was not happy about one character on it - again demonstrating that he focused on detail. He lived in a small one bedroom apartment.
This is his place in Taidong right?
Yes. My training sister Qin Guihua was also living there as his adopted daughter. She lived in the balcony at the front of the house that was converted into a small room. I often trained in his bedroom. The lesson typically started with drinking a cup of tea with him and a chat, and then I drilled in front of his bed where he was seated. If needed, he would get off the bed and coach me. Most of the time he would sit on his bed talking me through the movements. When Qin Guihua was at home she would assist and also train with me.
It must have been very difficult moving in that tiny space.
The room is about 4m long, 2m wide, with a single bed against the side wall. So I could only do 4-5 kicks per lap, and the forms etc. needed to be broken into small sections.
As mentioned, it was fortunate that you were able to receive assistant instruction from the champion disciple, Qin Guihua. Do you have any reflections on her formidable skills? From the photos and footage I have seen from back then, she was very powerfully built.
Yes, she was extremely strong and fast. She was a Tanglang gold medallist in the national workers games.
From memory you told me that GM Li first taught you Cha Chui to 'open your shoulders and waist'. Although you initially taught us Zhaiyao, you found our motions and structures too tight and successfully used Cha Chui for the same purpose. GM Li seems to have tailored his teaching to each student based on similar considerations.
Yes, as I said Shifu needed to undo my Meihua training. He used Cha Chui as a tool for that. It worked effectively in my case I think. He definitely did take such things into consideration in his teaching.
Did the difference between the teachings of both masters reinforce a stereotypical view of the characteristics of Qixing and Meihua Tanglang (i.e. long range and open vs. short range and compact)?
In my opinion it did.
As a point of interest, over the years in China I came across versions of both Qixing and Meihua that went completely against these stereotypes. In my opinion, many of these variations are regional rather than family-specific.
There have been a number of anecdotes that you've related regarding conversations with GM Li. He was a classical man and lived pre-communist republic so definitely saw the contrasts between both societies. One story that I found interesting regarded him criticising the handling of a type of fish by market workers.
He made that comment regarding the use of shovels to handle fish, while we were drinking tea together. His displeasure of declining moral and social values was very apparent. He focused on details and always upheld his virtue.
Also, there was the saying regarding the neglect of daily practice of 'ti fa' (kicking drills). I remember the English approximation but have forgotten the original. I should have asked you to write this stuff down for me back then.
Kicking was definitely a part of everyday training. The saying went something along the lines of 'Training Quan without kicking is tantamount to meeting a devil alive'.
That's the one. Nice. My dodgy translation was a little closer to 'If you don't do your kicks each day you can go to hell', ha ha...
Are there any stories about extreme or unusual training methods you can share? How about the ice cold showering?
The cold water showering technique actually came from my brother Xingwei, not from Shifu.
Very interesting. I tried that for a few years. It wasn't fun but it was fairly effective as far as I could tell. It's interesting to note that modern sports science advocates ice water baths to accelerate injury recovery.
Did you encounter any unusual dietary or medicinal requirements in your time in Qingdao? Kang had me on all kinds of weird stuff. I was regularly forced to eat sliced cold pigs lungs (apparently GM Li's favourite) which is one the most disgusting dishes I've ever had the pleasure of holding down. Another GM Li favourite, shared by Kang was a particular kind of turtle soup. I won't give away the entire 'top secret' Tanglang diet here though...
No, I wasn't on any particular diet but Jasmine Tea was definitely Shifu's favourite. He certainly did not smoke and I'm not sure whether he drank alcohol (and if he did, it was infrequent).
Your close one-on-one work with GM Li Zhanyuan gave you great foundations. I believe your focus on basics gave me the best possible head start for my future training in Qingdao. Personally, I liked the fact that we were not bombarded by taolu. On average, you taught us one form per year. Was that because we were just too useless to learn any faster?
I agree that basics and foundations are the most important. Zhaiyao is the trade mark of Tanglang. I think you all did very well with that form.
Very diplomatic Hua, ha ha...
I would agree on Zhaiyao being the core of Tanglang. Interestingly enough, that's probably more commonly regarded as something of a Meihua perspective. According to Kang, Li Zhanyuan regarded Tou Tao as the acme of Qixing Tanglang (as did Luo Guangyu). You were lucky to study this directly under him. I studied footage of him performing it at almost 90 years of age and I was blown away by his skill.
Because of my 'Meihua hands', a lot of correction was needed in learning this form, including the mechanics of Shuang Feng Shou (Double Sealing Hands). Yes, Shifu was incredibly skilful and mobile even into his final years.
If you had your time over again, what things that you missed would you have picked up before you left to Australia? I think you said you were about to start a particular type of spear (after studying paired dao and chain whip with Qin).
I was learning dao and chain whip to prepare for the national university wushu championships. But it was cut short by coming to Australia.
A good trade off as far as we're concerned.
When I first met Shifu, he was in his seventies, and widowed. But he was still strong. Shifu liked drinking tea, especially Jasmine tea (Hua Cha). He also liked calligraphy. I remember he had a piece of calligraphy on his wall (Dui Lian), he often commented about its writing. He obviously was not happy about one character on it - again demonstrating that he focused on detail. He lived in a small one bedroom apartment.
This is his place in Taidong right?
Yes. My training sister Qin Guihua was also living there as his adopted daughter. She lived in the balcony at the front of the house that was converted into a small room. I often trained in his bedroom. The lesson typically started with drinking a cup of tea with him and a chat, and then I drilled in front of his bed where he was seated. If needed, he would get off the bed and coach me. Most of the time he would sit on his bed talking me through the movements. When Qin Guihua was at home she would assist and also train with me.
It must have been very difficult moving in that tiny space.
The room is about 4m long, 2m wide, with a single bed against the side wall. So I could only do 4-5 kicks per lap, and the forms etc. needed to be broken into small sections.
As mentioned, it was fortunate that you were able to receive assistant instruction from the champion disciple, Qin Guihua. Do you have any reflections on her formidable skills? From the photos and footage I have seen from back then, she was very powerfully built.
Yes, she was extremely strong and fast. She was a Tanglang gold medallist in the national workers games.
From memory you told me that GM Li first taught you Cha Chui to 'open your shoulders and waist'. Although you initially taught us Zhaiyao, you found our motions and structures too tight and successfully used Cha Chui for the same purpose. GM Li seems to have tailored his teaching to each student based on similar considerations.
Yes, as I said Shifu needed to undo my Meihua training. He used Cha Chui as a tool for that. It worked effectively in my case I think. He definitely did take such things into consideration in his teaching.
Did the difference between the teachings of both masters reinforce a stereotypical view of the characteristics of Qixing and Meihua Tanglang (i.e. long range and open vs. short range and compact)?
In my opinion it did.
As a point of interest, over the years in China I came across versions of both Qixing and Meihua that went completely against these stereotypes. In my opinion, many of these variations are regional rather than family-specific.
There have been a number of anecdotes that you've related regarding conversations with GM Li. He was a classical man and lived pre-communist republic so definitely saw the contrasts between both societies. One story that I found interesting regarded him criticising the handling of a type of fish by market workers.
He made that comment regarding the use of shovels to handle fish, while we were drinking tea together. His displeasure of declining moral and social values was very apparent. He focused on details and always upheld his virtue.
Also, there was the saying regarding the neglect of daily practice of 'ti fa' (kicking drills). I remember the English approximation but have forgotten the original. I should have asked you to write this stuff down for me back then.
Kicking was definitely a part of everyday training. The saying went something along the lines of 'Training Quan without kicking is tantamount to meeting a devil alive'.
That's the one. Nice. My dodgy translation was a little closer to 'If you don't do your kicks each day you can go to hell', ha ha...
Are there any stories about extreme or unusual training methods you can share? How about the ice cold showering?
The cold water showering technique actually came from my brother Xingwei, not from Shifu.
Very interesting. I tried that for a few years. It wasn't fun but it was fairly effective as far as I could tell. It's interesting to note that modern sports science advocates ice water baths to accelerate injury recovery.
Did you encounter any unusual dietary or medicinal requirements in your time in Qingdao? Kang had me on all kinds of weird stuff. I was regularly forced to eat sliced cold pigs lungs (apparently GM Li's favourite) which is one the most disgusting dishes I've ever had the pleasure of holding down. Another GM Li favourite, shared by Kang was a particular kind of turtle soup. I won't give away the entire 'top secret' Tanglang diet here though...
No, I wasn't on any particular diet but Jasmine Tea was definitely Shifu's favourite. He certainly did not smoke and I'm not sure whether he drank alcohol (and if he did, it was infrequent).
Your close one-on-one work with GM Li Zhanyuan gave you great foundations. I believe your focus on basics gave me the best possible head start for my future training in Qingdao. Personally, I liked the fact that we were not bombarded by taolu. On average, you taught us one form per year. Was that because we were just too useless to learn any faster?
I agree that basics and foundations are the most important. Zhaiyao is the trade mark of Tanglang. I think you all did very well with that form.
Very diplomatic Hua, ha ha...
I would agree on Zhaiyao being the core of Tanglang. Interestingly enough, that's probably more commonly regarded as something of a Meihua perspective. According to Kang, Li Zhanyuan regarded Tou Tao as the acme of Qixing Tanglang (as did Luo Guangyu). You were lucky to study this directly under him. I studied footage of him performing it at almost 90 years of age and I was blown away by his skill.
Because of my 'Meihua hands', a lot of correction was needed in learning this form, including the mechanics of Shuang Feng Shou (Double Sealing Hands). Yes, Shifu was incredibly skilful and mobile even into his final years.
If you had your time over again, what things that you missed would you have picked up before you left to Australia? I think you said you were about to start a particular type of spear (after studying paired dao and chain whip with Qin).
I was learning dao and chain whip to prepare for the national university wushu championships. But it was cut short by coming to Australia.
A good trade off as far as we're concerned.
You were also the captain of the Haiyang Daxue Wushu team. I love the story about unofficial fights that took place between the teams outside of official taolu competition. In essence you boys were keeping the fighting element alive, something that many people in the West have difficulty believing about post-cultural revolution PRC martial arts. Please talk about the fight you took part in, the location, rules etc.
I think that particular incident took place in the summer of 1983-84, after a university sport carnival. Zhoushan Fishery College (now Zhoushan Ocean University) sent a group of students to OUC for field trips. They obviously saw us demonstrating in the sport carnival. One student from Zhoushan was also a martial artist. I forgot his style but he came to challenge. I don't remember why they chose me to take on the challenge. The rules were; a one-on-one fight after darkness in front of Shenli Building in the Yushan Campus. In order to show solidarity, my team members were all hiding behind the bushes in case something happened.
Or for their own safety? Ha ha...
I don't remember now every detail of the fight. But I clearly remember that it finished with a solid back kick I applied to the opponent (an Eagle style technique I learnt from my friend Wang Jihong in Hangzhou). The kick hit his chest.
So, it was Eagle Boxing instead of Tanglang that saved the day! Nice one. (Note: Wang Jihong was a National Sanda champion in the early 80's).
We trained together during my university holidays in Hangzhou. I taught him Zhaiyao Yilu, and in return, he taught me the first form and fundamentals of Eagle Boxing.
Any other good fight stories, apart from the primary school incident where you smashed a bully in the head with a large rock, ha ha.
Not really.
O.K. Some things are better left unsaid...
I think that particular incident took place in the summer of 1983-84, after a university sport carnival. Zhoushan Fishery College (now Zhoushan Ocean University) sent a group of students to OUC for field trips. They obviously saw us demonstrating in the sport carnival. One student from Zhoushan was also a martial artist. I forgot his style but he came to challenge. I don't remember why they chose me to take on the challenge. The rules were; a one-on-one fight after darkness in front of Shenli Building in the Yushan Campus. In order to show solidarity, my team members were all hiding behind the bushes in case something happened.
Or for their own safety? Ha ha...
I don't remember now every detail of the fight. But I clearly remember that it finished with a solid back kick I applied to the opponent (an Eagle style technique I learnt from my friend Wang Jihong in Hangzhou). The kick hit his chest.
So, it was Eagle Boxing instead of Tanglang that saved the day! Nice one. (Note: Wang Jihong was a National Sanda champion in the early 80's).
We trained together during my university holidays in Hangzhou. I taught him Zhaiyao Yilu, and in return, he taught me the first form and fundamentals of Eagle Boxing.
Any other good fight stories, apart from the primary school incident where you smashed a bully in the head with a large rock, ha ha.
Not really.
O.K. Some things are better left unsaid...
Martial art was of course heavily affected by the Cultural Revolution. GM Li himself was imprisoned and sent to a re-education camp in the countryside. It must have been interesting (or maybe confusing) for you growing up in the era of the red guards, yet learning classical martial arts and hearing the stories of those who were on the other side of equation.
That was never spoken about when I was learning from Shifu. But my time with him was after the Cultural Revolution. Traditional Wushu was coming back. Remember the film Shaolin Si was around that time?
Yes, it had a massive impact on the resurgence of gongfu in China.
A sad and disturbing trend I have witnessed in the PRC is the propensity for some individuals to use the Cultural Revolution to discredit or attack dead masters. Fortunately that has not been the case with Li Zhanyuan; however other late, masters have had their character permanently smeared by un-defendable allegations. Although after GM Li's death a few other ridiculous stories came out of the woodwork regarding fictitious challenge matches and masters he was alleged to have secretly studied under without acknowledgement etc.
Because Chinese politics is always cruel and brutal without the 'mercy' or 'forgiveness' that underpins the Western Christian culture, politics in Chinese Martial Arts cannot escape the same practice.
Did you ever see any of the farm implement taolu Li created and practised during the period of his forced relocation to the countryside? I regret not learning the rake from Kang Zhiqiang after seeing him wield it. I believe there is value in preserving such things, despite their negative roots.
No. But the rake was displayed in the weapon collection on the wall opposite to his bed. He talked about how he used it.
I recall you saying that you weren't sure of GM Li's level of literacy/education. He did through time produce a body of theoretical work (most likely with the assistance of others); however your training with him was largely focused on the physical as opposed to theoretical right?
Yes, that's right. I don't know how literate Shifu was. But he certainly did comment in detail about the writing of that particular calligraphy piece on the wall in his room so he at least had enough knowledge to criticise.
From the documents I've seen GM Li himself at least appears to have had powerful calligraphy.
I mention his literacy as both of his published (and widely known books), Qixing Tanglang Quan and Tiangang Jian were actually penned by Liu Chongxi under his direction. Apparently GM Li was not completely happy with the finished product, according to some of his disciples. You began training with him around the time of the book's publication right?
Yes I did train with him then and I recall discussion around that time that he was not very happy with the book.
(Note: Li Zhanyuan's Qixing Tanglang Quan book was entirely ripped off from cover to cover and republished in Taiwan as the work of Gao Wenzhang two years after it's PRC release. Only the introduction was substituted.)
There are a number of interesting points regarding the 1984 book - firstly, the man on the cover isn't him. Apparently it's a Hua Quan master from Anhui and the publishers mixed up the images. According to Kang, Li was very angry about that. Secondly, a conscious decision was made at the time to largely avoid using traditional terminology or to detail any applications. Of course this was par for the course for most wushu publications at the time. In an effort to counter this earlier release, and in light of the resurgence of chuantong (traditional) wushu GM Li had commenced work on another book, based directly on quan pu, that unfortunately never saw the light of day before his death.
It's a shame Li didn't get to publish his more in-depth, classical material as I believe this is the heritage that should be shared by all.
You joined GM Li at an interesting time. It was also around then that he was named as 'Sulin Dashi' and was invited to teach at the Shaolin Temple in Henan. Qin Guihua also accompanied him on some trips there to teach Tanglang.
Yes, my lessons were cancelled for a month or two due to their travel to the Temple.
Regardless of claims of 'orthodoxy' by certain parties, it is clear that GM Li's Tanglang was the synthesis of over 60 years of Mantis Boxing research across Shandong and the Dongbei region. It was in the 1980's that the name 'Shaolin Jingang Qixing Tanglang' was first publicly used but this name is not often heard since his death.
At the time, Li Shifu spoke a lot of Shaolin Jingang Qixing Tanglang, saying the style is hardy and powerful. This is the style that I studied under him.
It seems to me that his personal innovations have been downplayed in an effort to conform to mainstream perceptions. Of course the body mechanics, shou fa, bu fa, applications and certain core taolu are all fairly standard Yantai Qixing but there is enough variation in curriculum, theory and application for it to be considered a distinct entity.
In regards to technique, what was GM Li's favourite move? I remember you saying he had an extremely powerful descending punch (Zai Chui).
Yes, that was a movement found in the last road of Cha Chui that he often used to demonstrate the power of Tanglang. He demonstrated it while seated and it shook the whole bed violently.
What is your favourite technique, taolu and weapon?
Zai Chui is my favourite technique. Zhaiyao Yilu is a good form and also I like the sword and spear.
That was never spoken about when I was learning from Shifu. But my time with him was after the Cultural Revolution. Traditional Wushu was coming back. Remember the film Shaolin Si was around that time?
Yes, it had a massive impact on the resurgence of gongfu in China.
A sad and disturbing trend I have witnessed in the PRC is the propensity for some individuals to use the Cultural Revolution to discredit or attack dead masters. Fortunately that has not been the case with Li Zhanyuan; however other late, masters have had their character permanently smeared by un-defendable allegations. Although after GM Li's death a few other ridiculous stories came out of the woodwork regarding fictitious challenge matches and masters he was alleged to have secretly studied under without acknowledgement etc.
Because Chinese politics is always cruel and brutal without the 'mercy' or 'forgiveness' that underpins the Western Christian culture, politics in Chinese Martial Arts cannot escape the same practice.
Did you ever see any of the farm implement taolu Li created and practised during the period of his forced relocation to the countryside? I regret not learning the rake from Kang Zhiqiang after seeing him wield it. I believe there is value in preserving such things, despite their negative roots.
No. But the rake was displayed in the weapon collection on the wall opposite to his bed. He talked about how he used it.
I recall you saying that you weren't sure of GM Li's level of literacy/education. He did through time produce a body of theoretical work (most likely with the assistance of others); however your training with him was largely focused on the physical as opposed to theoretical right?
Yes, that's right. I don't know how literate Shifu was. But he certainly did comment in detail about the writing of that particular calligraphy piece on the wall in his room so he at least had enough knowledge to criticise.
From the documents I've seen GM Li himself at least appears to have had powerful calligraphy.
I mention his literacy as both of his published (and widely known books), Qixing Tanglang Quan and Tiangang Jian were actually penned by Liu Chongxi under his direction. Apparently GM Li was not completely happy with the finished product, according to some of his disciples. You began training with him around the time of the book's publication right?
Yes I did train with him then and I recall discussion around that time that he was not very happy with the book.
(Note: Li Zhanyuan's Qixing Tanglang Quan book was entirely ripped off from cover to cover and republished in Taiwan as the work of Gao Wenzhang two years after it's PRC release. Only the introduction was substituted.)
There are a number of interesting points regarding the 1984 book - firstly, the man on the cover isn't him. Apparently it's a Hua Quan master from Anhui and the publishers mixed up the images. According to Kang, Li was very angry about that. Secondly, a conscious decision was made at the time to largely avoid using traditional terminology or to detail any applications. Of course this was par for the course for most wushu publications at the time. In an effort to counter this earlier release, and in light of the resurgence of chuantong (traditional) wushu GM Li had commenced work on another book, based directly on quan pu, that unfortunately never saw the light of day before his death.
It's a shame Li didn't get to publish his more in-depth, classical material as I believe this is the heritage that should be shared by all.
You joined GM Li at an interesting time. It was also around then that he was named as 'Sulin Dashi' and was invited to teach at the Shaolin Temple in Henan. Qin Guihua also accompanied him on some trips there to teach Tanglang.
Yes, my lessons were cancelled for a month or two due to their travel to the Temple.
Regardless of claims of 'orthodoxy' by certain parties, it is clear that GM Li's Tanglang was the synthesis of over 60 years of Mantis Boxing research across Shandong and the Dongbei region. It was in the 1980's that the name 'Shaolin Jingang Qixing Tanglang' was first publicly used but this name is not often heard since his death.
At the time, Li Shifu spoke a lot of Shaolin Jingang Qixing Tanglang, saying the style is hardy and powerful. This is the style that I studied under him.
It seems to me that his personal innovations have been downplayed in an effort to conform to mainstream perceptions. Of course the body mechanics, shou fa, bu fa, applications and certain core taolu are all fairly standard Yantai Qixing but there is enough variation in curriculum, theory and application for it to be considered a distinct entity.
In regards to technique, what was GM Li's favourite move? I remember you saying he had an extremely powerful descending punch (Zai Chui).
Yes, that was a movement found in the last road of Cha Chui that he often used to demonstrate the power of Tanglang. He demonstrated it while seated and it shook the whole bed violently.
What is your favourite technique, taolu and weapon?
Zai Chui is my favourite technique. Zhaiyao Yilu is a good form and also I like the sword and spear.
ADFA 1st Year Taiji Quan instruction - February 1999
It's almost 20 years since you first started teaching Tanglang in Australia. At that time there were only a hand full of Mantis Boxing schools scattered throughout the country, all originating in Hong Kong, Taiwan and Vietnam. In fact you were the first to start teaching the mainland Chinese variety of Tanglang here and the first to teach Li Zhanyuan?s particular brand of Qixing Tanglang outside of China.
I think so, and I am glad our family of Qixing is now well known internationally, and this style is shared by many people. Shifu would be very happy if he were alive today to see that. I had a feeling that he was expecting this to happen when he took me as his student in such an unusual circumstance (he was quiet old, and I was already in my early twenties).
I know you never really had any intentions of teaching martial arts, yet you ended up teaching quite a large group of students throughout the 90's and the society you founded (Tanglang Quan She) is still going strong today. It must be good to see Li Zhanyuan's legacy continued and even better to have your children growing up training in the tradition.
Yes, that is my contribution to Chinese Wushu. For that I received a Wushu Contribution Award from the Organizing Committee of the International Traditional Chinese Martial Arts Tournament in Qingdao, 2009.
It was certainly well deserved.
Speaking of the martial tradition of the family - you come from just such a background. Your late father Wang Yongsheng (R.I.P) was a renowned Taiji Quan master in Hangzhou. Not only was he responsible for organising your training under Li Zhanyuan, but you were fortunate enough to study Taiji directly under him. Would you say that you have come to appreciate Taiji above all other forms of training these days?
Yes, my father taught me Taiji. I have benefited from it greatly. It's a very nice form to practice even when I was younger. Every time I practice it now, I remember my father.
That's a great reason to continue practicing it. Which version do you train?
Yang 108 long form and National standard 48.
It should be mentioned here that I was appointed by the Australian Defence Force Academy as chief instructor for teaching Beijing 24 Taiji to over three hundred midshipmen and cadets as part of their Year 1 Familiarization Program in 1999 and 2001. To my knowledge, it was the first time that a Chinese Martial Art was used by the Australian Defence Force (and possibly by any Defence Force of the West) for its military training. These events attracted strong media attention within Australia and internationally.
Although primarily training your dad's Taiji these days, it is clear that your Tanglang skills are still top notch - evidenced by your recent silver and gold medals in international competition in Qingdao in the last couple of years. What do you think of the role of competition (in all forms, barehand, weapons and free-fighting) in martial arts training? It's no secret that medals and trophies, certificates and rankings are disproportionately favoured in China these days (though the Chinese martial arts in the diaspora are certainly not immune).
This is a very interesting question. I have attended a couple of competitions in China in the last several years all based on traditional Wushu, and I have received several medals. Attending competition and winning medals is quite fun but I don't see that's the essence of traditional Wushu.
Having a significant amount of experience with modern wushu and lifelong involvement with traditional gongfu, what do you feel are the pros and cons of both? For example, we have long discussed the stability and strength VS speed and flexibility issue in regards to training youngsters.
I sent my sons Max and Alex to Hangzhou Chen Jinglun Sport School last year. They were training with other Wushu students in the school for six months. Seeing how they trained at the semi-professional level, I have come to the realization that modern Wushu is not sustainable. And I also began to understand why traditional Wushu survived the Cultural Revolution and has again thrived in China today. My prediction is that traditional Wushu will dominate Chinese martial arts in the next 5-10 years. Recent International WuBo (Martial Arts Expo) Games held from 28 August to 3 September 2010 in Beijing included all traditional forms of Wushu from China and abroad. This is the evidence for this developing trend.
I agree. And from a more cynical point of view, traditional martial arts are a bigger cash cow, as most foreigners are far more interested in learning them.
It has become a very big industry over there.
I think so, and I am glad our family of Qixing is now well known internationally, and this style is shared by many people. Shifu would be very happy if he were alive today to see that. I had a feeling that he was expecting this to happen when he took me as his student in such an unusual circumstance (he was quiet old, and I was already in my early twenties).
I know you never really had any intentions of teaching martial arts, yet you ended up teaching quite a large group of students throughout the 90's and the society you founded (Tanglang Quan She) is still going strong today. It must be good to see Li Zhanyuan's legacy continued and even better to have your children growing up training in the tradition.
Yes, that is my contribution to Chinese Wushu. For that I received a Wushu Contribution Award from the Organizing Committee of the International Traditional Chinese Martial Arts Tournament in Qingdao, 2009.
It was certainly well deserved.
Speaking of the martial tradition of the family - you come from just such a background. Your late father Wang Yongsheng (R.I.P) was a renowned Taiji Quan master in Hangzhou. Not only was he responsible for organising your training under Li Zhanyuan, but you were fortunate enough to study Taiji directly under him. Would you say that you have come to appreciate Taiji above all other forms of training these days?
Yes, my father taught me Taiji. I have benefited from it greatly. It's a very nice form to practice even when I was younger. Every time I practice it now, I remember my father.
That's a great reason to continue practicing it. Which version do you train?
Yang 108 long form and National standard 48.
It should be mentioned here that I was appointed by the Australian Defence Force Academy as chief instructor for teaching Beijing 24 Taiji to over three hundred midshipmen and cadets as part of their Year 1 Familiarization Program in 1999 and 2001. To my knowledge, it was the first time that a Chinese Martial Art was used by the Australian Defence Force (and possibly by any Defence Force of the West) for its military training. These events attracted strong media attention within Australia and internationally.
Although primarily training your dad's Taiji these days, it is clear that your Tanglang skills are still top notch - evidenced by your recent silver and gold medals in international competition in Qingdao in the last couple of years. What do you think of the role of competition (in all forms, barehand, weapons and free-fighting) in martial arts training? It's no secret that medals and trophies, certificates and rankings are disproportionately favoured in China these days (though the Chinese martial arts in the diaspora are certainly not immune).
This is a very interesting question. I have attended a couple of competitions in China in the last several years all based on traditional Wushu, and I have received several medals. Attending competition and winning medals is quite fun but I don't see that's the essence of traditional Wushu.
Having a significant amount of experience with modern wushu and lifelong involvement with traditional gongfu, what do you feel are the pros and cons of both? For example, we have long discussed the stability and strength VS speed and flexibility issue in regards to training youngsters.
I sent my sons Max and Alex to Hangzhou Chen Jinglun Sport School last year. They were training with other Wushu students in the school for six months. Seeing how they trained at the semi-professional level, I have come to the realization that modern Wushu is not sustainable. And I also began to understand why traditional Wushu survived the Cultural Revolution and has again thrived in China today. My prediction is that traditional Wushu will dominate Chinese martial arts in the next 5-10 years. Recent International WuBo (Martial Arts Expo) Games held from 28 August to 3 September 2010 in Beijing included all traditional forms of Wushu from China and abroad. This is the evidence for this developing trend.
I agree. And from a more cynical point of view, traditional martial arts are a bigger cash cow, as most foreigners are far more interested in learning them.
It has become a very big industry over there.
Qin Guihua, Li Qiming and Wang - Qingdao 2009
As a Professor of Oceanography and a busy family man, you somehow still seem to find time to fit in both your own training and that of your boys. Is this a result of that old saying relating to seeing the devil?
It's hard, but I train as much as I can.
Not that you are that old, but do you have any martial goals left, or is it all about the kids now?
I am looking forward to seeing my children compete in Qingdao one day.
I look forward to that too (though I'd much rather see them in the ring than on the carpet). On that point, would you encourage your boys to fight competitively when they are older?
Yes, but injuries are my concern.
I can understand that.
You never played the role of the all-powerful, mysterious and infallible Chinese master. In fact I never met such a no-bullshit guy in all my life until I started training under you. Whether it is just your nature or something you inherited from your training under GM Li Zhanyuan I don't know, but your hardcore teaching style (nothing was ever correct, low enough, hard enough, fast enough, relaxed enough etc) definitely prepared me well for training in Qingdao. How important is the concept of 'eating bitter' in martial arts training?
Thanks for kind words. Nothing comes easy and I always believe in hard work. 'Ku Jin Gan Lai' (after bitterness, comes sweetness).
I would never argue against this.
It's hard, but I train as much as I can.
Not that you are that old, but do you have any martial goals left, or is it all about the kids now?
I am looking forward to seeing my children compete in Qingdao one day.
I look forward to that too (though I'd much rather see them in the ring than on the carpet). On that point, would you encourage your boys to fight competitively when they are older?
Yes, but injuries are my concern.
I can understand that.
You never played the role of the all-powerful, mysterious and infallible Chinese master. In fact I never met such a no-bullshit guy in all my life until I started training under you. Whether it is just your nature or something you inherited from your training under GM Li Zhanyuan I don't know, but your hardcore teaching style (nothing was ever correct, low enough, hard enough, fast enough, relaxed enough etc) definitely prepared me well for training in Qingdao. How important is the concept of 'eating bitter' in martial arts training?
Thanks for kind words. Nothing comes easy and I always believe in hard work. 'Ku Jin Gan Lai' (after bitterness, comes sweetness).
I would never argue against this.
Wang Xiaohua with the late Kang Zhiqiang
Your particular style of teaching could probably be described as 'enough rope'. Although occasionally correcting our mistakes, after a while you allowed us to think we were doing proper Tanglang, even though looking back now I can see that we obviously weren't. As a result I went to China with a pretty big head and rapidly had it deflated. There were many fundamental errors that were instantly exposed over there. The funny thing is, everything I finally came to understand about Tanglang from my years in China was stuff you had already tried to instil in basic training. You must have had a few good laughs over the years watching us trying to figure it out.
I am always proud of all my students. And I think we all agreed you are clearly the best of all.
Thanks Hua. You're too kind. Actually, I was digging for criticism, but that will do (the cheque is in the mail). In one way or another though, all of your boys are carrying the torch.
For me, one of the most satisfying things was seeing you reconnect with your Qingdao family (having communication basically severed after unexpectedly remaining in Australia) and eventually forging a strong relationship with Kang Zhiqiang, the Li brothers (Qiming and Qiyu) and Chen Leping. My initial acceptance in the family was entirely based on my relationship to you. I think you would agree that I was very lucky that things turned out the way they did for me in Qingdao. What was it like going back to Qingdao after so many years and being apart of that brotherhood?
I agree. I very much value the brotherhood in all of my life. So reconnecting to my martial brothers and sister (Qin Guihua) after all these years is a great experience for me. Now my family is also part of it. I am also tremendously proud that you have been accepted into this Qixing family. I must say that the credit should go to yourself as you have proven your worthiness for this acceptance. All my brothers and sisters in Qingdao speak very highly of you both on Tanglang skills as well as a person. Shifu would love you if he were still alive.
Thank you very much for that great compliment Hua, very much appreciated (far too kind again). This interview will now look as if I wrote the responses myself, ha ha...
Thanks also for taking time to shed some light on an interesting era in the modern history of Tanglang. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you for blessing me with your teaching, encouraging me to go as far as I could with Tanglang (still not there yet) and to expand my horizons both in training and in life. You were a great role model for me as a young man and I hope my kids may also benefit from your teaching at some stage.
On behalf of our Qixing family, I would take this opportunity to thank you for your great effort and contribution to promote Qixing Tanglang around the globe.
Thanks again mate.
I am always proud of all my students. And I think we all agreed you are clearly the best of all.
Thanks Hua. You're too kind. Actually, I was digging for criticism, but that will do (the cheque is in the mail). In one way or another though, all of your boys are carrying the torch.
For me, one of the most satisfying things was seeing you reconnect with your Qingdao family (having communication basically severed after unexpectedly remaining in Australia) and eventually forging a strong relationship with Kang Zhiqiang, the Li brothers (Qiming and Qiyu) and Chen Leping. My initial acceptance in the family was entirely based on my relationship to you. I think you would agree that I was very lucky that things turned out the way they did for me in Qingdao. What was it like going back to Qingdao after so many years and being apart of that brotherhood?
I agree. I very much value the brotherhood in all of my life. So reconnecting to my martial brothers and sister (Qin Guihua) after all these years is a great experience for me. Now my family is also part of it. I am also tremendously proud that you have been accepted into this Qixing family. I must say that the credit should go to yourself as you have proven your worthiness for this acceptance. All my brothers and sisters in Qingdao speak very highly of you both on Tanglang skills as well as a person. Shifu would love you if he were still alive.
Thank you very much for that great compliment Hua, very much appreciated (far too kind again). This interview will now look as if I wrote the responses myself, ha ha...
Thanks also for taking time to shed some light on an interesting era in the modern history of Tanglang. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you for blessing me with your teaching, encouraging me to go as far as I could with Tanglang (still not there yet) and to expand my horizons both in training and in life. You were a great role model for me as a young man and I hope my kids may also benefit from your teaching at some stage.
On behalf of our Qixing family, I would take this opportunity to thank you for your great effort and contribution to promote Qixing Tanglang around the globe.
Thanks again mate.